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	<title>Comments on: The Morality of God: Christ at the Center</title>
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		<title>By: Bible Difficulties 3: Joshua 6:21-24 &#171;</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-772</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bible Difficulties 3: Joshua 6:21-24 &#171;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 00:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-772</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] God commands wicked actions. I&#8217;ve offered other defenses of such charges before (see here and here), but here I&#8217;d like to examine one specific case (and I will likely do so in the future as [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] God commands wicked actions. I&#8217;ve offered other defenses of such charges before (see here and here), but here I&#8217;d like to examine one specific case (and I will likely do so in the future as [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jesus: The Living God &#171;</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesus: The Living God &#171;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Morality of God: Christ at the Center. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Morality of God: Christ at the Center. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Wartick</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.W. Wartick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that this seems a bit like a misconception of exactly who God is and what He demands. God demands perfection. But no one lives a perfect life. Thus, all are equally condemned to hell. Christ, however, provided a &quot;way out&quot;, if you will, by coming into the world, perfectly fulfilling God&#039;s law, and dying for the sins of all people. 

So statements like &quot;...the “open-minded” god that allows these (I would call them) injustices...&quot; are actually seeming, to me, to be misunderstanding. The injustice is not that people go to hell. &lt;em&gt;Everyone&lt;/em&gt; deserves to go to hell, myself included, Mother Theresa included, Martin Luther included, etc. &lt;em&gt;Everyone&lt;/em&gt; deserves hell (Romans 2:1 and following, and throughout Romans). Everyone stands equally condemned. God provided Himself in Christ as a way for sinners to be saved (1 Timothy 1:15). So it&#039;s not like we all start of deserving to be saved and then God sends people to hell for unbelief. No, we all deserve hell, and God rescues sinners from hell because of their belief in Christ Jesus.

&quot;Again hypotheticlly speaking, does this mean that it is blasphemous for you to say or think “I really hope the person that hurt [loved one] goes to hell” ?&quot;

Blasphemy is speaking against God, so no, it wouldn&#039;t be blasphemy. But it would be quite sinful to hope someone goes to hell.

Now I must honestly say I&#039;m not sure what your argument is at the end of your paragraph here. I can&#039;t follow it. Could you rephrase it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that this seems a bit like a misconception of exactly who God is and what He demands. God demands perfection. But no one lives a perfect life. Thus, all are equally condemned to hell. Christ, however, provided a &#8220;way out&#8221;, if you will, by coming into the world, perfectly fulfilling God&#8217;s law, and dying for the sins of all people. </p>
<p>So statements like &#8220;&#8230;the “open-minded” god that allows these (I would call them) injustices&#8230;&#8221; are actually seeming, to me, to be misunderstanding. The injustice is not that people go to hell. <em>Everyone</em> deserves to go to hell, myself included, Mother Theresa included, Martin Luther included, etc. <em>Everyone</em> deserves hell (Romans 2:1 and following, and throughout Romans). Everyone stands equally condemned. God provided Himself in Christ as a way for sinners to be saved (1 Timothy 1:15). So it&#8217;s not like we all start of deserving to be saved and then God sends people to hell for unbelief. No, we all deserve hell, and God rescues sinners from hell because of their belief in Christ Jesus.</p>
<p>&#8220;Again hypotheticlly speaking, does this mean that it is blasphemous for you to say or think “I really hope the person that hurt [loved one] goes to hell” ?&#8221;</p>
<p>Blasphemy is speaking against God, so no, it wouldn&#8217;t be blasphemy. But it would be quite sinful to hope someone goes to hell.</p>
<p>Now I must honestly say I&#8217;m not sure what your argument is at the end of your paragraph here. I can&#8217;t follow it. Could you rephrase it?</p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Wartick</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-544</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.W. Wartick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for responding, Nyform. I just wanted to let you know the next week or so is extremely hectic, so I may or may not get back to you in detail. I will respond in detail when time allows.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for responding, Nyform. I just wanted to let you know the next week or so is extremely hectic, so I may or may not get back to you in detail. I will respond in detail when time allows.</p>
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		<title>By: KingNyform</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-542</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KingNyform]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand the editing of the content. The story of my sister&#039;s co-worker was a true one, and I described it in all of its gruesomeness only to drive my point across. Refraining from the graphic details wouldn&#039;t do justice to my point, but I do understand that you prefer such material not be posted, and I&#039;ll respect that. 

In all due respect, I must say that I do not understand the logic behind following a god with such- for lack of better words -misguided morals. Hypothetically, if my mother (an atheist) became the victim of a horrible cannabilistic serial killer, but the latter repented this sin of killing my mother, he would go to heaven. But my mother, being an atheist and never accepting christ as her savior or asking for forgiveness, would go to hell. I honestly cannot fathom how any one individual could follow the rule of a god with this logic. Also I would not understand anyone defending the unfair hypothetical fate of my mother. In my humble opinion, THAT kind of logic seems evil. And this may just be an assumption, but I am guessing that many christian people would &#039;adjust&#039; their beliefs if they were personally afflicted with a scenario similar to the one I have described. 

If you love the &quot;open-minded&quot; god that allows these (I would call them) injustices, does this mean that you must follow suit and not place value judgements on individuals? Again hypotheticlly speaking, does this mean that it is blasphemous for you to say or think &quot;I really hope the person that hurt [loved one] goes to hell&quot; ? And if you do this, would this not make you a hypocrite? Also, if you actually DO engage in the action of thinking this statement, wouldn&#039;t it mean that you, honestly in your heart of hearts, did not agree with god&#039;s word? If you truly agreed with it, it would be natural to follow and automatically you would NOT even think such a statement. But if you were following it because god said, then you are following a rule that you do not naturally and internally agree with and therefore can easily slip. And if this seems plausible, why would an individual choose to follow a god that causes them to act and react unnaturally? And if the natural instinct would be to condemn a person that wronged a loved one, then why would god expect unnatural reactions? I am not trying to be disrespectful, I just really do not understand the logic behind following god&#039;s word when so much contradiction and hypocracy is involved. Is following this just a way to get to heaven and/or prevent punishment...??? If so, wouldn&#039;t this be a very self-centered mindset? Otherwise, what is the motive for following god&#039;s word? Would god smile upon the self-centered mindset because its in his favor?
I cannot see the benefit, but I suppose that is why I am atheist. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the editing of the content. The story of my sister&#8217;s co-worker was a true one, and I described it in all of its gruesomeness only to drive my point across. Refraining from the graphic details wouldn&#8217;t do justice to my point, but I do understand that you prefer such material not be posted, and I&#8217;ll respect that. </p>
<p>In all due respect, I must say that I do not understand the logic behind following a god with such- for lack of better words -misguided morals. Hypothetically, if my mother (an atheist) became the victim of a horrible cannabilistic serial killer, but the latter repented this sin of killing my mother, he would go to heaven. But my mother, being an atheist and never accepting christ as her savior or asking for forgiveness, would go to hell. I honestly cannot fathom how any one individual could follow the rule of a god with this logic. Also I would not understand anyone defending the unfair hypothetical fate of my mother. In my humble opinion, THAT kind of logic seems evil. And this may just be an assumption, but I am guessing that many christian people would &#8216;adjust&#8217; their beliefs if they were personally afflicted with a scenario similar to the one I have described. </p>
<p>If you love the &#8220;open-minded&#8221; god that allows these (I would call them) injustices, does this mean that you must follow suit and not place value judgements on individuals? Again hypotheticlly speaking, does this mean that it is blasphemous for you to say or think &#8220;I really hope the person that hurt [loved one] goes to hell&#8221; ? And if you do this, would this not make you a hypocrite? Also, if you actually DO engage in the action of thinking this statement, wouldn&#8217;t it mean that you, honestly in your heart of hearts, did not agree with god&#8217;s word? If you truly agreed with it, it would be natural to follow and automatically you would NOT even think such a statement. But if you were following it because god said, then you are following a rule that you do not naturally and internally agree with and therefore can easily slip. And if this seems plausible, why would an individual choose to follow a god that causes them to act and react unnaturally? And if the natural instinct would be to condemn a person that wronged a loved one, then why would god expect unnatural reactions? I am not trying to be disrespectful, I just really do not understand the logic behind following god&#8217;s word when so much contradiction and hypocracy is involved. Is following this just a way to get to heaven and/or prevent punishment&#8230;??? If so, wouldn&#8217;t this be a very self-centered mindset? Otherwise, what is the motive for following god&#8217;s word? Would god smile upon the self-centered mindset because its in his favor?<br />
I cannot see the benefit, but I suppose that is why I am atheist. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Wartick</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.W. Wartick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 04:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;if god exists, you say we would be in no position to judge god or his morals&quot; indeed. I&#039;d be happy to hear a contrary argument, rather than an appeal ad misericordiam, to the contrary. If God exists, then, necessarily, God is sovereign.

&quot;you believe that we should be indebted to him, not question him and love him no matter what. Anyone can ask god for forgiveness, repent their sins, and god will love them.&quot;

There is no argument here either. I think this is a clearly true statement, however, considering God (assuming God exists) created us, among other things. Not to mention the redemption He offers, as you point out.

&quot;So the god-loving individual... agony in hell.&quot;

Other than your sarcastic statements, generally speaking, this is correct. Also, you still have not provided an argument.

&quot;why must you have god in your life to be a moral person? Can’t you do it on your own? Although this may be an overdone argument, it still amazes me.&quot;

I never said that. I have never said that either in this post, or in any other I have ever posted. People can definitely be &quot;moral&quot; people apart from God. They cannot, however, be saved apart from Christ, for &quot;All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God&quot; (Romans 3:23). I absolutely have never  claimed people must believe in God to be moral. The message of Christ is not a message of moral renewal, but a message of salvation granted as a gift to all those who need it through the death of Christ. What you have presented is simply a straw man argument (if it is an argument at all), and is dismissed.

&quot;I find it rather peculiar that so many people decide they will play nice only because of what’s written in a book.&quot;

Unfortunately, this is often the case. People treat the Bible as though it is some moral guidebook. It&#039;s not. The central message of the Bible is Christ crucified for our salvation. Those who treat it like a moral guidebook are misrepresenting what the Bible is. Not only that, but it is faith that produces good works (Ephesians 2:8-10), not some kind of moralistic attempt at self-justification. 

&quot;while a rapist child molestor who happens to be christian may sleep soundly at night.&quot;

Unrepentant sin is damning. If this person you are describing truly repents of this sin, then, indeed, God will forgive him/her. The same is true for anyone, for any sin. This is indeed the &quot;open-minded god&quot; I do love following. Salvation is available to all, not just those people that &lt;em&gt;we&lt;/em&gt; think are worthy. Salvation is open to the sinner (repentant child molester) and the saint (someone living a &quot;good life&quot;) alike. The only demand is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. 

I&#039;m not sure where you have learned some of the ideas you have about Christianity, but I think they are entirely wrong. Christianity is not about living good lives. It&#039;s about acknowledging that we are all sinners in some way and that we all need salvation. Then, it&#039;s about realizing that the salvation we need is not something we can earn by being wonderful, &quot;moral&quot; people, it&#039;s something offered as a free gift through Jesus Christ. So yes, the child molester who repents and becomes a Christian is saved, but so is the person who is a glutton, or the person who lies once and that is the only wrong they commit in their entire lives. It is unrepentant sin that sends people to hell. Living a &quot;good life&quot;, however, doesn&#039;t cut it. Only a perfect life would satisfy the Law. Christ came and lived that perfect life, died for our sins (no matter how great or small), and rose again, just as we shall in the world to come. 

Your animosity is quite clear throughout this post. Please note I edited part of it for content. If you continue in such an irrational, offensive tone, I will be forced to delete or heavily edit comments. Please maintain civility.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;if god exists, you say we would be in no position to judge god or his morals&#8221; indeed. I&#8217;d be happy to hear a contrary argument, rather than an appeal ad misericordiam, to the contrary. If God exists, then, necessarily, God is sovereign.</p>
<p>&#8220;you believe that we should be indebted to him, not question him and love him no matter what. Anyone can ask god for forgiveness, repent their sins, and god will love them.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is no argument here either. I think this is a clearly true statement, however, considering God (assuming God exists) created us, among other things. Not to mention the redemption He offers, as you point out.</p>
<p>&#8220;So the god-loving individual&#8230; agony in hell.&#8221;</p>
<p>Other than your sarcastic statements, generally speaking, this is correct. Also, you still have not provided an argument.</p>
<p>&#8220;why must you have god in your life to be a moral person? Can’t you do it on your own? Although this may be an overdone argument, it still amazes me.&#8221;</p>
<p>I never said that. I have never said that either in this post, or in any other I have ever posted. People can definitely be &#8220;moral&#8221; people apart from God. They cannot, however, be saved apart from Christ, for &#8220;All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God&#8221; (Romans 3:23). I absolutely have never  claimed people must believe in God to be moral. The message of Christ is not a message of moral renewal, but a message of salvation granted as a gift to all those who need it through the death of Christ. What you have presented is simply a straw man argument (if it is an argument at all), and is dismissed.</p>
<p>&#8220;I find it rather peculiar that so many people decide they will play nice only because of what’s written in a book.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this is often the case. People treat the Bible as though it is some moral guidebook. It&#8217;s not. The central message of the Bible is Christ crucified for our salvation. Those who treat it like a moral guidebook are misrepresenting what the Bible is. Not only that, but it is faith that produces good works (Ephesians 2:8-10), not some kind of moralistic attempt at self-justification. </p>
<p>&#8220;while a rapist child molestor who happens to be christian may sleep soundly at night.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unrepentant sin is damning. If this person you are describing truly repents of this sin, then, indeed, God will forgive him/her. The same is true for anyone, for any sin. This is indeed the &#8220;open-minded god&#8221; I do love following. Salvation is available to all, not just those people that <em>we</em> think are worthy. Salvation is open to the sinner (repentant child molester) and the saint (someone living a &#8220;good life&#8221;) alike. The only demand is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure where you have learned some of the ideas you have about Christianity, but I think they are entirely wrong. Christianity is not about living good lives. It&#8217;s about acknowledging that we are all sinners in some way and that we all need salvation. Then, it&#8217;s about realizing that the salvation we need is not something we can earn by being wonderful, &#8220;moral&#8221; people, it&#8217;s something offered as a free gift through Jesus Christ. So yes, the child molester who repents and becomes a Christian is saved, but so is the person who is a glutton, or the person who lies once and that is the only wrong they commit in their entire lives. It is unrepentant sin that sends people to hell. Living a &#8220;good life&#8221;, however, doesn&#8217;t cut it. Only a perfect life would satisfy the Law. Christ came and lived that perfect life, died for our sins (no matter how great or small), and rose again, just as we shall in the world to come. </p>
<p>Your animosity is quite clear throughout this post. Please note I edited part of it for content. If you continue in such an irrational, offensive tone, I will be forced to delete or heavily edit comments. Please maintain civility.</p>
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		<title>By: KingNyform</title>
		<link>http://jwwartick.com/2010/02/04/the-morality-of-god-christ-at-the-center/#comment-538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KingNyform]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 04:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jwwartick.com/?p=267#comment-538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, I am not going to puff up my ego by using inflated language; I will be direct. 
Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but this is my understanding of what you believe: Hypothetically-speaking, if god exists, you say we would be in no position to judge god or his morals. Also, you believe that we should be indebted to him, not question him and love him no matter what. Anyone can ask god for forgiveness, repent their sins, and god will love them. 
So the god-loving individual that brutalized [blog owner (J.W.) edited for content] one of my sister&#039;s coworkers may ask god to forgive him and take christ as his savior, and this will allow him to sip Margaritas up on a cloud with the Care Bears.  But on the other hand I don&#039;t believe in god or accept christ as my savior, and unfortunately for my godforsaken soul I ate one too many cookies today. GASP. I am now doomed to an eternity of inconceivable torture and agony in hell.
Also, why must you have god in your life to be a moral person? Can&#039;t you do it on your own? Although this may be an overdone argument, it still amazes me. I am an exceptionally moral person, yet I have never opened a Bible and was raised in an atheist household. Like most, I have been raised by parents with good morals, which you could liken that to being &quot;raised by god&quot; with good morals. But once you&#039;re an adult, it&#039;s up to you whether or not you end up a moral person when raised by parents. 
I find it rather peculiar that so many people decide they will play nice only because of what&#039;s written in a book. This book (word of god) goes so far as to decide who you can love; you are not allowed to be anything but heterosexual. I guess I will go to hell for gluttony, and my friend will go to hell for being gay, while a rapist child molestor who happens to be christian may sleep soundly at night. Woo-hoo. Sounds like a nice, open-minded god that I would love to follow! No, sounds more like a power-hungry, immoral tyrant that&#039;s got a lot of people under his thumb. Whoever thought up god/the bible was the genius of all genuises!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I am not going to puff up my ego by using inflated language; I will be direct.<br />
Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but this is my understanding of what you believe: Hypothetically-speaking, if god exists, you say we would be in no position to judge god or his morals. Also, you believe that we should be indebted to him, not question him and love him no matter what. Anyone can ask god for forgiveness, repent their sins, and god will love them.<br />
So the god-loving individual that brutalized [blog owner (J.W.) edited for content] one of my sister&#8217;s coworkers may ask god to forgive him and take christ as his savior, and this will allow him to sip Margaritas up on a cloud with the Care Bears.  But on the other hand I don&#8217;t believe in god or accept christ as my savior, and unfortunately for my godforsaken soul I ate one too many cookies today. GASP. I am now doomed to an eternity of inconceivable torture and agony in hell.<br />
Also, why must you have god in your life to be a moral person? Can&#8217;t you do it on your own? Although this may be an overdone argument, it still amazes me. I am an exceptionally moral person, yet I have never opened a Bible and was raised in an atheist household. Like most, I have been raised by parents with good morals, which you could liken that to being &#8220;raised by god&#8221; with good morals. But once you&#8217;re an adult, it&#8217;s up to you whether or not you end up a moral person when raised by parents.<br />
I find it rather peculiar that so many people decide they will play nice only because of what&#8217;s written in a book. This book (word of god) goes so far as to decide who you can love; you are not allowed to be anything but heterosexual. I guess I will go to hell for gluttony, and my friend will go to hell for being gay, while a rapist child molestor who happens to be christian may sleep soundly at night. Woo-hoo. Sounds like a nice, open-minded god that I would love to follow! No, sounds more like a power-hungry, immoral tyrant that&#8217;s got a lot of people under his thumb. Whoever thought up god/the bible was the genius of all genuises!</p>
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